Curse

Zinger314 · Jul 01, 2009, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

Here we are 22 pages later discussing a post that was that was biased in it's wording, by a poster known to bait the discussion. A more honest question would have been "How did Heroes change Guild Wars" which I think many people here have segued into. The fact that the poster has only posted 2 times in this whole thread shows how little he really cared about the discussion, his second post (Plus I have Amnesia, which increases my Special up by two levels!) shows this. I just think the OP had not so honest intentions with this post, and probably very proud of the length of the replies. While a good discussion might have emerged it was all based on a dishonest premise. Just my thoughts.

Nope. This thread is legit and not an attempt to troll.

And I am being serious.

Rocky Raccoon · Jul 01, 2009, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Nope. This thread is legit and not an attempt to troll.

And I am being serious.

I can respect that, I would have just worded it differently.

Daesu · Jul 01, 2009, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

i h/h'd all mishies on hm numerous times without cons.
i don't player ranger, but im pretty sure i could do dzagonur with one.
my tactic is to go full 8man or 1/7 split to the west shrine and clear that boss literally as soon as he spawns, then run back and defend center. you might lose the east shrine, but masters only requires 5/6 defenses intact. after that first boss is down the rest is a breeze, because now you only have 3/4 the enemies and only 2 shrines to defend. after the 2nd boss goes down, you can pretty much take as much time as you want and go slow. however, if the very first boss is not killed right away, the number of forces will be overwhelming. timing is very important.

That doesn't work for me because the west boss takes too long to kill. Maybe for other primary, it will be faster. By the time I run back to the east bombard, it is almost gone. I can do this much faster with human players without ever losing a single bombardment. I want to find out if there is a 3 heroes+4 henchies build to achieve the same thing with the same amount of ease. You have to convince me that it is faster and easier to use H/H for that mission in order for me not to rely on human players.

If you can prove that for ALL missions and areas it is cheaper (in time and difficulty) to use H/H over human players, then what Dreamwind says about heroes replacing human players make sense. But if having human players make ALL missions and areas cheaper (in time and difficulty) to complete, then heroes do not replace human players. In many areas, it just seems to me that using H/H to complete, takes more effort than relying on other human players.

the_jos · Jul 01, 2009, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

And that is what I can't change. My primary title character is a ranger. Not necessarily the best profession for a title character but I am somewhat stuck with it, if I dont want to redo all those other missions. I guess many people are in similar situations when going after titles.

My former guildie played ranger so that should not be the main problem

But he put a lot of time in learning to H&H the game and controling his heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Those situations that depend on primary or take ages are not good examples of heroes being a universal replacement for human players. Afterall, the main advantage of using H/H is to avoid the waiting time, if you have to take longer to vanquish the area with H/H then that counters the shorter waiting time.

The main primary I expect problems with is someone playing monk, specially when healing/protting. It's not easy calling targets while making sure red bars don't go down too much.
The next is assassin except when playing something like critical barrager.
The class depends too much on the rest of the team to keep him clear to spike a priority target. It's also far easier to focus on one target as team, something H&H teams do. The other classes seem doable to me.
H&H instead of human players indeed depends on waiting time.
Playing with humans is always easier but a 2/6 team often won't gain more than 30 mins back. On small vanquishes the gain won't get past 15 mins.

This is a rough estimation though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Also I would be interested to know 3-heroes+henchies builds for completing HM Dzagonur+bonus without cons. That sounds like an achievement in itself, which would be alot harder than just asking human players to help out. Honestly I am not sure if these areas are even possible with only H/H and without cons, with a ranger, but I would be interested to know how it is done, if they are possible.

Foundry HM. Can't think of any 2-person + hero team except the regular Famine Farming team. Not sure if they can finish up the areas last bosses though, I'm not a farmer. And you need a human monk to 600 the area.
So options are very limited.
I think I remember TAM/GoE played a build that could include heroes. Not sure if it still works and TAM and GoE were at the top of the game back then (dunno about their current status).

I used a mixed necro team at Dzagonur (two MM + SS).
One MM flagged near Ele Boss to keep those foes away.
What helps a lot here is speed boosts and knowing movement of foes.
Devona as hench will help with charge, you could go /P and invest some points in Command for skills like 'Fall Back' (I think that's the one). Or put it on the MM hero and drop Soul Reaping somewhat.
Boss down means moving to the next boss.
A couple of remaining foes isn't going to cause much of a problem.
Most annoying foes for you as ranger will be the rangers with their blocks I guess.
If you have EotN put Pain Inverter on them, gets them down fast since Whirling Defence will put out a lot of damage when minions are around them.
Anything that gets rid of stances also helps (there is a necro skill, rigor mortis I think) when no PI is available. Would need some micro control though.

But this is one of the missions that's far easier played with a human player for sure (same for Eternal Grove).

Last thing to say: this ain't for the regular player.
First of all, most 'regular' players have little to find in Hard Mode besides disappointment.
Next it requires some serious investment in the game, more than most players would be willing to put in.
But it's not about if everyone can do it. It's about if it's possible if you are dedicated enough to make H&H work. And I think the answer to that is yes for all HM content outside Elite areas.

Compare it to the stuff [agro] was doing around the time they were in the same alliance as we. They were speeding up UW and FoW clears, and set some record times for Deep.
Not everyone likes doing that, they had the dedication to go out and do it.
I think they, together with some other high end PvE guilds, were the people who enabled Speed Clears to emerge. The knowledge they gained back then is now common knowledge.

Daesu · Jul 01, 2009, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

My former guildie played ranger so that should not be the main problem

But he put a lot of time in learning to H&H the game and controling his heroes.

So what is your point in this discussion? That your former guildie is such elite player far beyond most of us? So what, have you seen my former guildie's big brother's girlfriend's cousin?

Or are you saying because he did it with H/H before, so that makes it easier for anyone to do that with H/H?

Quote:

The main primary I expect problems with is someone playing monk, specially when healing/protting. It's not easy calling targets while making sure red bars don't go down too much.

If someone is playing a monk, it is probably much easier to form a human team for that mission. Why would the monk choose to H/H when it is harder to do so?

Quote:

The next is assassin except when playing something like critical barrager.
The class depends too much on the rest of the team to keep him clear to spike a priority target. It's also far easier to focus on one target as team, something H&H teams do. The other classes seem doable to me.
H&H instead of human players indeed depends on waiting time.

Why dont we have a little competition then. You screenshot your time with just heroes and henchies and I'll do this with my human team and we compare which is faster.

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Playing with humans is always easier but a 2/6 team often won't gain more than 30 mins back. On small vanquishes the gain won't get past 15 mins.

On UWSC, a human team can do it in 15mins or less. Do you want to show how long it is to do that with 6 heroes?

Quote:

If you have EotN put Pain Inverter on them, gets them down fast since Whirling Defence will put out a lot of damage when minions are around them.
Anything that gets rid of stances also helps (there is a necro skill, rigor mortis I think) when no PI is available. Would need some micro control though.

So, you are saying that I need to even micro my heroes?

Wait a minute, using H/H is suppose to be easier right? If it is harder, then doesn't it require more skill? And doesn't that mean heroes cannot fully replace human players?

Quote:

But this is one of the missions that's far easier played with a human player for sure (same for Eternal Grove).
Last thing to say: this ain't for the regular player.

That's right. Since most people would go the easier route for missions, why would they choose H/H over humans? How is it that Dreamwind kept insisting that heroes replace human players? Is he still stuck in the easy mission areas?

Quote:

First of all, most 'regular' players have little to find in Hard Mode besides disappointment.
Next it requires some serious investment in the game, more than most players would be willing to put in.
But it's not about if everyone can do it. It's about if it's possible if you are dedicated enough to make H&H work. And I think the answer to that is yes for all HM content outside Elite areas.

But the point of contention is, are heroes a replacement for human players in this game? In the easier missions, perhaps because H/H makes more sense since they are faster to form. In the tougher missions, elite missions, in HM, where the best drops in the game are, heroes dont replace humans. And even if you can do it with H/H, most people dont because it is just not worth the time/gold investment to do that when a SC team can do it so much faster. I have said this to Dreamwind many times.

Notorious Bob · Jul 01, 2009, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Did Heroes kill GW - not really, it was already dying due to lack of imagination and any clue of how to construct a MMO.

e.g. We have PvP titles to encourage PvP, we have nothing that actually encourages players to PuG.

The game has been continually dumbed down to that time > skill - play through PvE and grind or quit.

Anet could have taken PvE any number of ways to extend shelf-life but chose not to. Factions started as a good idea but was totally botched.

Heroes simply gave players an opportunity to get a quick 3PS fix without the need to participate in the MMO environment.

GW might have a lot of subscribers, but a large proportion of them only play to get a quick fix. Anet have stated as much.

Quite sad really.

Kendel · Jul 01, 2009, 07:10 PM // 19:10

In HM? Are you kidding? Outside of the most high end of areas like Slavers Exile and DoA a team of H/H will generally suffice in HM. With at the very most, flagging, and the odd targetted skill usage depending on build structure.

Speed clears do not count for anything because every single 1 completely abuses broken skills/mechanics to function. 55s, 600s and permasins, the latter 2 should of been removed immediately from the game, not encouraged. They can't be compared to regular H/H or balanced teams in an attempt to prove a point.

Daesu · Jul 01, 2009, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendel

In HM? Are you kidding? Outside of the most high end of areas like Slavers Exile and DoA a team of H/H will generally suffice in HM. With at the very most, flagging, and the odd targetted skill usage depending on build structure.

Sure you can do that, but it is still much easier to complete it with a human team. I didn't even need to flag or micro anything, all I needed was to just play my own character. And most players would choose the route that is easiest for them to succeed.

Quote:

Speed clears do not count for anything because every single 1 completely abuses broken skills/mechanics to function. 55s, 600s and permasins, the latter 2 should of been removed immediately from the game, not encouraged. They can't be compared to regular H/H or balanced teams in an attempt to prove a point.

Doesn't matter, sticking to the topic, that still proves that heroes do not replace human players.

Skyy High · Jul 01, 2009, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Sure you can do that, but it is still much easier to complete it with a human team.

Unless, of course, the humans suck. You always know what H/H are going to do, whereas humans run the gamut from epic to less than worthless (ie, actively harming your attempts to beat the mission). When you average the time lost by all of the failed parties you get with PUGs, plus the additional time it takes to make the PUG in the first place, I think it's pretty clear that for most tasks, especially in HM, H/H just does it faster.

Quote:

Doesn't matter, sticking to the topic, that still proves that heroes do not replace human players.

I don't think anyone ever said that heroes replaced humans...they just made other humans optional for 99% of PvE.

Daesu · Jul 01, 2009, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Unless, of course, the humans suck. You always know what H/H are going to do, whereas humans run the gamut from epic to less than worthless (ie, actively harming your attempts to beat the mission). When you average the time lost by all of the failed parties you get with PUGs, plus the additional time it takes to make the PUG in the first place, I think it's pretty clear that for most tasks, especially in HM, H/H just does it faster.

True, I did say that heroes are more consistent in an earlier post. But other than the poor attitude of some players, an average human player should perform better than a dumb hero who tries to shoot through walls repeatedly and an average human player is able to run out of AoE reliably rather than running within it and dies.

There is still the option of partying with other reliable human players that you know and trust.

Quote:

I don't think anyone ever said that heroes replaced humans...they just made other humans optional for 99% of PvE.

I dont think that percentage is even near as high as 99%. But whatever, it is the HM elite areas that have the best drop in the game and those are still much tougher with a H/H than with a SC team.

Bryant Again · Jul 01, 2009, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

Here we are 22 pages later discussing a post that was that was biased in it's wording, by a poster known to bait the discussion. A more honest question would have been "How did Heroes change Guild Wars" which I think many people here have segued into. The fact that the poster has only posted 2 times in this whole thread shows how little he really cared about the discussion, his second post (Plus I have Amnesia, which increases my Special up by two levels!) shows this. I just think the OP had not so honest intentions with this post, and probably very proud of the length of the replies. While a good discussion might have emerged it was all based on a dishonest premise. Just my thoughts.

Nope, this was indeed legit. Nothing is wrong with the wording.

I can tell you that if this came from anyone that we'd still be seeing these quote wars. So chill.

zigalot · Jul 02, 2009, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Heroes make it difficult for beginners to find a group. When i tried the nightfall campaign that everyone had heroes and rarely did i see a group made up of all human players. I remember when prophecy first came out it wasn't like that. No matter how good you are, u still needed a group. No matter how noob you were still able to get into a group. it was more cooperative and more enjoyable. You also had a faster learning curve because other players could give you advice on how to play.

Bryant Again · Jul 02, 2009, 10:16 AM // 10:16

The problem is we can't really tell if that's solely a hero problem, or if it's much of a hero problem at all.

We don't know if heroes were just a "spur of the moment" sort of idea or if they were actually created in response to what ANet was seeing with the players.

For me, Prophecies was good until I started to get near THK. The missions then started to get a bit more tough and the groups I was in were starting to whipe a bit more. It wasn't until THK itself where I took part in 10 consecutively failed PUGs, all losing at the very last part. Then I tried it with henchmen and *aced* it.

That was when I not only started to pug less, but realized when I needed to pug I was having troubles: "GROUP LOOKING FOR MONK" will forever be etched into my eyes.

upier · Jul 02, 2009, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

I don't think anyone ever said that heroes replaced humans...they just made other humans optional for 99% of PvE.

If additional human party members weren't optional - the game would simply be unplayable for a very big number of players.
Well, the game that we have now, that is. For the game to be available to a big number of players - it would demand a number of HUGE changes.
I guess heroes were cheaper.

Ghost Omel · Jul 02, 2009, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

None taken, no worries bro.

I think we might be a bit confused at who we're talking about here, and I apologize for that. I thought we were talking about the majority of players, the casuals, who don't not care about the issues but just aren't aware of them. As long as they can wield a cool sword, play through the game, and enjoy themselves, they're totally fine with how things are. This is the "majority player". They may not be playing the game anymore because they beat it, but they still hold a good impression of the game.

But I do agree that there is a group that doesn't voice their opinions over here, people that do have a lot to say, that do have issues with choices ANet makes - but will just simply adapt to what they face.

Indeed. Er, I thought that was the impression my post was giving off : o ?

Oh ok.. thast what i was trying to say the whole Time.. so i gues we were debating about diferent things wether it was my lack of understanding or vice-versa not pointing fingers here.. So yeah. the bolded part is right on.. simplified version of what i was trying to say using the examples.. Alright then yeah we can go back to the old 2 sides of the debate here =)

Rocky Raccoon · Jul 02, 2009, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Nope, this was indeed legit. Nothing is wrong with the wording.

I can tell you that if this came from anyone that we'd still be seeing these quote wars. So chill.

The question is based upon an assumption, not necessarily a truism. The question I used is a more honest one that allows the same discussion without a bias. I said I accepted Zinger's saying that it was not a troll. Having said that the "Little Boy Who Cried Wolf" could lead you to question the intent of some posters when they try to be legit. Time to chill out now.

Daesu · Jul 02, 2009, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by zigalot

Heroes make it difficult for beginners to find a group. When i tried the nightfall campaign that everyone had heroes and rarely did i see a group made up of all human players.

You are in the nightfall campaign and you dont have your own heroes?

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I remember when prophecy first came out it wasn't like that. No matter how good you are, u still needed a group. No matter how noob you were still able to get into a group.

Not really. When my level 4 just graduated from pre-searing I couldn't find a group in ascalon city to do the next quest, so I had to use henchies.

People only join quests that they are interested in for themselves. I rarely see a level 10 helping out a level 4 on a quest that he has already done. Usually the level 10 would just be interested to get to his next stage in the game for himself.

Quote:

it was more cooperative and more enjoyable. You also had a faster learning curve because other players could give you advice on how to play.

Everytime I try giving advice on how to play to someone, they always rage quit, so now I stop.

Azadaleou · Jul 04, 2009, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Guild Wars was advertised as a coop mmo. What makes a mmo a mmo is your interaction with people. When heroes were introduced it completely negated that principle. The first thing I noticed when I got NF when it launched as that I would see everyone with a full party but none would be live players. Just heroes and henchmen.

This was shocking, because prophecies and factions you NEEDED to group. It was encouraged. NF and onwards, not much so. From a broader perspective what Anet did was the unthinkable. You know how in most mmorpgs using automated programs are forbidden? Anet essentially implemented a automated program and labelled it as the "hero system".

One of the worst parts is, they allowed them in pvp! Which took out the "P" part because they weren't players but bots. At this point its probably to late to do anything with heroes as in completely removing them. Since everyone has became reliant on them. The only thing they could do is to somehow change the game to were grouping with live players is more beneficial than grouping with bots.

I don't know about you guys, but I really miss the days of needing to group with live players.

Bryant Again · Jul 04, 2009, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azadaleou

Guild Wars was advertised as a coop mmo. What makes a mmo a mmo is your interaction with people. When heroes were introduced it completely negated that principle. The first thing I noticed when I got NF when it launched as that I would see everyone with a full party but none would be live players. Just heroes and henchmen.

This was shocking, because prophecies and factions you NEEDED to group. It was encouraged. NF and onwards, not much so. From a broader perspective what Anet did was the unthinkable. You know how in most mmorpgs using automated programs are forbidden? Anet essentially implemented a automated program and labelled it as the "hero system".

One of the worst parts is, they allowed them in pvp! Which took out the "P" part because they weren't players but bots. At this point its probably to late to do anything with heroes as in completely removing them. Since everyone has became reliant on them. The only thing they could do is to somehow change the game to were grouping with live players is more beneficial than grouping with bots.

I don't know about you guys, but I really miss the days of needing to group with live players.

But then the population problem arises: what happens when you start to see less and less people in the game? Without heroes how stressed would one be when attempting to "LFM"?

This could be the reason, or part of, why ANet implemented heroes. We still don't know the full reasons of why, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

The question is based upon an assumption, not necessarily a truism...

That's bad : ( Sans that I don't see how Zinger's post is biased but instead just generally negative.

Mad Lord of Milk · Jul 04, 2009, 09:49 PM // 21:49

People fail, Heroes own - people stopped PuG-ing - GW cooperation died.